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	<title>Comments on: Leibson&#8217;s Law in Action?   Cadence returns to ESL with new synthesis tool</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/</link>
	<description>ESL, embedded processors, and more</description>
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		<title>By: Observations from Uppsala &#187; Blog Archive &#187; What&#8217;s the Obsession with C in EDA?</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Observations from Uppsala &#187; Blog Archive &#187; What&#8217;s the Obsession with C in EDA?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-133</guid>
		<description>[...] This event was marked with some excitement and blogging in the EDA space (SCDSource, EDN-Wilson, CDM-Martin, to give some links for more reading). At core, I agree that what they are doing is fairly cool [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This event was marked with some excitement and blogging in the EDA space (SCDSource, EDN-Wilson, CDM-Martin, to give some links for more reading). At core, I agree that what they are doing is fairly cool [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SKMurphy &#187; What Happens When 70 EDA Blogs Become 500 in 2011</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>SKMurphy &#187; What Happens When 70 EDA Blogs Become 500 in 2011</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-127</guid>
		<description>[...] his print publication. I was particularly impressed by a recent post by Grant Martin on &#8220;Leibson’s Law in Action? Cadence returns to ESL with new synthesis tool&#8221; because he did something that is natural for a blogger and highly unusual for an article in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] his print publication. I was particularly impressed by a recent post by Grant Martin on &#8220;Leibson’s Law in Action? Cadence returns to ESL with new synthesis tool&#8221; because he did something that is natural for a blogger and highly unusual for an article in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Taken for Granted &#187; Space exploration &#8230; design, that is</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Taken for Granted &#187; Space exploration &#8230; design, that is</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-126</guid>
		<description>[...] Home            &#171; Leibson&#8217;s Law in Action? Cadence returns to ESL with new synthesis tool [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Home            &laquo; Leibson&#8217;s Law in Action? Cadence returns to ESL with new synthesis tool [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Grant Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-111</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mac for your response.   The linkage of RTL synthesis more tightly into high-level synthesis, that you described is definitely intriguing.   Even without comparisons between different competitors tools (something always desired but naturally, vendors are reluctant on this!), it would be interesting to know about the impact of incorporating RTL synthesis into the tool for the purpose of improving QoR, vs. having an unlinked flow.    If Cadence had any numbers ref. using RTL compiler in C2S embedded vs. using it &quot;unlinked&quot; (as if it was a 3rd party tool) that would numerically show the advantages of the embedding for different classes of design problems, that would be very interesting to see.   Perhaps if the group publishes anything in the future that would be an interesting comparison point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mac for your response.   The linkage of RTL synthesis more tightly into high-level synthesis, that you described is definitely intriguing.   Even without comparisons between different competitors tools (something always desired but naturally, vendors are reluctant on this!), it would be interesting to know about the impact of incorporating RTL synthesis into the tool for the purpose of improving QoR, vs. having an unlinked flow.    If Cadence had any numbers ref. using RTL compiler in C2S embedded vs. using it &#8220;unlinked&#8221; (as if it was a 3rd party tool) that would numerically show the advantages of the embedding for different classes of design problems, that would be very interesting to see.   Perhaps if the group publishes anything in the future that would be an interesting comparison point.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael McNamara</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael McNamara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-110</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Grant, Dan, Sean &amp; John for your comments!

The Cadence C-to-Silicon Compiler uses RTL Compiler to validate that each part of the RTL description CtoS is building will meet the specific area, timing and power goals of the design team, as well as whether the entire circuit will meet the QoR requirements when implemented as gates by RTL Compiler with the chosen technology library and clock speeds.  This automated flow enables CtoS to leverage the powerful optimization features of RTL Compiler&#039;s global timing, physical aware synthesis, rather than perhaps fighting with it.

Customers are free to, and have taken the CtoS generated RTL through other implementation paths; the results are just not as correlated with the model of implementation that CtoS used when it chose the RTL structure and particular sharing and timing relationships.  Our RTL works with all flows, but works better with the Encounter RTL Compiler flow. 

As Dan suggests, one gets better results if you can &quot;see over the horizon.&quot; Consider a golfer hitting out of a deep sand trap - some might get lucky and hit the ball into the hole - but most would get better, more consistent results if they could somehow model the entire flight of the ball, including the selection of the putter to be used for the next shot.  (So yes, we are taking the fun out of the game of chip design, and making it a boringly predictable enterprise)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Grant, Dan, Sean &amp; John for your comments!</p>
<p>The Cadence C-to-Silicon Compiler uses RTL Compiler to validate that each part of the RTL description CtoS is building will meet the specific area, timing and power goals of the design team, as well as whether the entire circuit will meet the QoR requirements when implemented as gates by RTL Compiler with the chosen technology library and clock speeds.  This automated flow enables CtoS to leverage the powerful optimization features of RTL Compiler&#8217;s global timing, physical aware synthesis, rather than perhaps fighting with it.</p>
<p>Customers are free to, and have taken the CtoS generated RTL through other implementation paths; the results are just not as correlated with the model of implementation that CtoS used when it chose the RTL structure and particular sharing and timing relationships.  Our RTL works with all flows, but works better with the Encounter RTL Compiler flow. </p>
<p>As Dan suggests, one gets better results if you can &#8220;see over the horizon.&#8221; Consider a golfer hitting out of a deep sand trap &#8211; some might get lucky and hit the ball into the hole &#8211; but most would get better, more consistent results if they could somehow model the entire flight of the ball, including the selection of the putter to be used for the next shot.  (So yes, we are taking the fun out of the game of chip design, and making it a boringly predictable enterprise)</p>
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		<title>By: Grant Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-106</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-106</guid>
		<description>Dan, thanks for your observations.   Your suggestion that Cadence might be contemplating a spinout of the C to Silicon team is of course way beyond anything that I know:  intriguing, but I don&#039;t think that would help them with regulatory or antitrust issues.  I think spin outs of much larger and longer-lived overlaps, such as the PCB tools or the verification tools, would be required to have a real impact on regulatory issues.   Cadence&#039;s current C2S market must be quite small and Mentor&#039;s CatapultC, while sounding reasonably successful in ESL synthesis, is probably not too big in absolute terms (when compared to other slices of EDA).

Your observation that Cadence&#039;s C2S goes all the way to gates via the embedding of RTL compiler is an interesting one.  Cadence implied that for control, this improved results; but I am not sure whether this is really the case for the dataflow applications that many of the other ESL synthesis tools seem to have been concentrating on.   But I agree with you that QoR is vital, and it would be fascinating to see comparative benchmarks of different tools running on several applications.    Certainly it is good to see the announcement of a development by Cadence in the ESL space (and a development that was telegraphed many years ago and that people have been waiting for).

Grant</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, thanks for your observations.   Your suggestion that Cadence might be contemplating a spinout of the C to Silicon team is of course way beyond anything that I know:  intriguing, but I don&#8217;t think that would help them with regulatory or antitrust issues.  I think spin outs of much larger and longer-lived overlaps, such as the PCB tools or the verification tools, would be required to have a real impact on regulatory issues.   Cadence&#8217;s current C2S market must be quite small and Mentor&#8217;s CatapultC, while sounding reasonably successful in ESL synthesis, is probably not too big in absolute terms (when compared to other slices of EDA).</p>
<p>Your observation that Cadence&#8217;s C2S goes all the way to gates via the embedding of RTL compiler is an interesting one.  Cadence implied that for control, this improved results; but I am not sure whether this is really the case for the dataflow applications that many of the other ESL synthesis tools seem to have been concentrating on.   But I agree with you that QoR is vital, and it would be fascinating to see comparative benchmarks of different tools running on several applications.    Certainly it is good to see the announcement of a development by Cadence in the ESL space (and a development that was telegraphed many years ago and that people have been waiting for).</p>
<p>Grant</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Ganousis</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Ganousis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-105</guid>
		<description>Nice summary Grant. In January I posted an article on SCDSource regarding why ESL vendors were having a difficult time increasing their valuations. I offered that a &quot;rollup&quot; of ESL vendors was imminent - and as you point out, it appears to be in process (Carbon&#039;s acquisition, Cadence&#039;s collaboration with Calypto).

One point you might have overlooked - with the attempted hostile takeover of Mentor by Cadence, could Cadence be contemplating spinning out the C-to-Silicon team (maybe merging with Calypto?) to avoid the regulatory issues they cited (overlap with CatapultC)?

I think one of the key&#039;s of Cadence&#039;s announcement is the fact that they are the FIRST ESL VENDOR to offer a C-to-GATES solution ... everyone else believes C-to-RTL is adequate, and it&#039;s not. Users will not adopt a ESL flow that does not deliver adequate quality of results (QoR) - what sense does it make to increase productivity if product quality declines? That is, who in their right mind would adopt a design flow that produces more gates, consumes more power and offers less performance? I know of none.

So, QoR is vitally important ... and that&#039;s what I believe is the hidden gold nuggest in the Cadence announcement. By embedding RTL Compiler, they can deliver competitive QoR AND eliminate the need for a user to have a Synopsys DC tool/license.

It&#039;s a very shrewd move by Cadence - kudos to Mac, Steve Carlson and the rest of the crew at Cadence.

Maybe it also takes a decade to break a market stranglehold like Design Compiler has had ... Mentor
did it to Cadence with Calibre, can Cadence do it to Synopsys with C-to-Silicon?

Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice summary Grant. In January I posted an article on SCDSource regarding why ESL vendors were having a difficult time increasing their valuations. I offered that a &#8220;rollup&#8221; of ESL vendors was imminent &#8211; and as you point out, it appears to be in process (Carbon&#8217;s acquisition, Cadence&#8217;s collaboration with Calypto).</p>
<p>One point you might have overlooked &#8211; with the attempted hostile takeover of Mentor by Cadence, could Cadence be contemplating spinning out the C-to-Silicon team (maybe merging with Calypto?) to avoid the regulatory issues they cited (overlap with CatapultC)?</p>
<p>I think one of the key&#8217;s of Cadence&#8217;s announcement is the fact that they are the FIRST ESL VENDOR to offer a C-to-GATES solution &#8230; everyone else believes C-to-RTL is adequate, and it&#8217;s not. Users will not adopt a ESL flow that does not deliver adequate quality of results (QoR) &#8211; what sense does it make to increase productivity if product quality declines? That is, who in their right mind would adopt a design flow that produces more gates, consumes more power and offers less performance? I know of none.</p>
<p>So, QoR is vitally important &#8230; and that&#8217;s what I believe is the hidden gold nuggest in the Cadence announcement. By embedding RTL Compiler, they can deliver competitive QoR AND eliminate the need for a user to have a Synopsys DC tool/license.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a very shrewd move by Cadence &#8211; kudos to Mac, Steve Carlson and the rest of the crew at Cadence.</p>
<p>Maybe it also takes a decade to break a market stranglehold like Design Compiler has had &#8230; Mentor<br />
did it to Cadence with Calibre, can Cadence do it to Synopsys with C-to-Silicon?</p>
<p>Dan</p>
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		<title>By: John Blyler</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>John Blyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-103</guid>
		<description>Great blog, Grant! You should pass it on to StanK, who returned to Cadence just a few years ago after departing shortly after Cadence sold off their previous ESL program.

BTW: Enjoy your blog pics. Remind me of the EETimes old &quot;Immortal Works&quot; contest pics. Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great blog, Grant! You should pass it on to StanK, who returned to Cadence just a few years ago after departing shortly after Cadence sold off their previous ESL program.</p>
<p>BTW: Enjoy your blog pics. Remind me of the EETimes old &#8220;Immortal Works&#8221; contest pics. Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/2008/07/14/leibsons-law-in-action-cadence-returns-to-esl-with-new-synthesis-tool/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipdesignmag.com/martins/?p=15#comment-102</guid>
		<description>This is a very useful summary that places several announcements in context. What I appreciate in particular is that you linked to the source material on-line, regardless of where it came from, in a blog that&#039;s nominally sponsored by Chip Design Magazine. You have links to EE Times, SCDSource, EDN, and Chip Design Mag. I do think we are seeing the emergence of viable products at design abstraction levels above RTL (my suspicion is that what we now refer to as ESL will be divided into at least three layers). McNamara&#039;s article was also important, as you correctly point out, because it abandoned Cadence&#039;s earlier effort to redefine ESL as &quot;Enterprise System Layer&quot; and return to working within the commonly understood context of the term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very useful summary that places several announcements in context. What I appreciate in particular is that you linked to the source material on-line, regardless of where it came from, in a blog that&#8217;s nominally sponsored by Chip Design Magazine. You have links to EE Times, SCDSource, EDN, and Chip Design Mag. I do think we are seeing the emergence of viable products at design abstraction levels above RTL (my suspicion is that what we now refer to as ESL will be divided into at least three layers). McNamara&#8217;s article was also important, as you correctly point out, because it abandoned Cadence&#8217;s earlier effort to redefine ESL as &#8220;Enterprise System Layer&#8221; and return to working within the commonly understood context of the term.</p>
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